For part-I Click here.
Me: Tell me how this world come into existence if there is no creator.
Atul: Ha, ha ha. Why you all religious peoples ask same question? Anyhow. You answer me first. If without creator nothing can exist then who created the God? How he can exist without creator? I can explain existence of universe without God using Science.
Me: (I interrupted ) God does not need creator by definition. He is neither born and nor created. He existed for even.
Atul: How do you know that?
ME: It is written in Quran and hadees books.
Atul: This is call circular argument. Without proving your scripture, you are using it as authority. By definition is not a logical answer. Show me the evidence.
Me: God is transidendent . He created the universe so he must be out of the universe right.
Atul: Now you are making special pledging. When everything else exist inside the universe, how you can possibly claim that something exists outside it. My friend extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But I am sorry you have produce nothing to support your belief. You just have a blind faith on your religion.
Me: Do you have proof of evolution? Or what happened before big bang?
Atul: We are talking about Atheism not about Science. This is common misconception that atheism depends on Science specially evolution. However, that is not true. There were atheist in Roman, Greek and ancient Indian civilizations. Atheism did not came from science. Science came from atheism. When people started asking question and searching for answers without invoking god, then science came into existence. Science gives rational and logical answer and most importantly, results are experimentally verifiable. Religions are only based on blind faith. I believe so it is.
ME: So if you do not need science, tell me how you come to this world. Who made it and why there is something rather than nothing.
Atul: Now you are asking question from classical philosophy-why there is something. My friend there can be two condition. 1) There exist something, 2) Nothing exist. If there will be nothing we will not sit here and discuss about something. Nothing can exist but fortunately or unfortunately something exists and we are here. Our existence is a proof that something always existed. Whether it was low energy level quantum fluctuations or hydrogen gas or dark matter and energy or whatever say creator for your sake. Because logically, something cannot come from absolute nothing. You must be aware of law of conservation of mass and energy. Matter and energy keep on transforming. Coming back to your question, just because you can frame a grammatically correct question does not mean that question is logical. For example: If I ask you what is the size of your sorrow? Philosophically, you can think over it for ages, but logically it has not meaning. What is the color of jealousy? This is another such question.
Regarding your first question, I came from my parents. I was not present when this world was formed. I do not know can be my answer as an Atheist. However, science is my best bet to know about formation of world because science is testable.
Me: How you can rely on science when it keep changing. Newtonian Physics replaced by Einstein theory of relativity. Every day we see someone proving some scientific theory wrong and proposing new theory.
Atul: This is the beauty of science that we can challenge wrong theory or better call hypothesis. Even today we use Newtonian Physics for all practical purposes even for launching rockets or for sending probes to mars. Einstein only prove that when we reach speed of light, Newtonian Physics does not gives accurate result. So, it is an approximation of theory of relativity. Scientist are also human. Do not expect divinity from them. I do not rely on Science. I rely on my senses.
Me: Earlier you said your Atheism does not depend on science, so why are you Atheist? Just to enjoy your life?
Atul: (Smilingly) I have many religious friends who are enjoying life equally because they do not take religion seriously to die for. So, I do not have to be atheist to enjoy life. I am atheist because religions and their so called divine scriptures like Vedas for Hindus does not make sense for me. They are outdated books written by some intellectuals of that time. However, at present they do not contain any truth. Science has surpass all the information available in these scriptures. There is nothing in scriptures that point to divine revelation.
I am agnostic because there is no point in living in ignorance and dreaming about a world, which does not exist. Religion is like opium. It gives you fake consolation and dreams of heaven and hell.
Me: You agree that Religion gives consolation. Whether fake or real is different story. What your issue is in becoming religious even if it is not true. There is always some chances that it may be true.
Atul: Answer will be very long; I will try to explain in short. Firstly, mind once stretch by an idea never regain its original shape. I tried one time to be religious again for the sake of my parents and sister. They love me so much and keep insisting me to come back to religious faith. I tried hard but something inside my mind rebel strongly. Every time I went to temple, my mind start asking question why I am here. Why I am praying to a stone idol? When I read my scripture or someone praise religion in our home for some stupid reason I feel very angry. Finally I give up. I can’t even pretend to be religious. I said sorry to my parents and luckily they understand my situation. I am lucky that I have so much loving parents and sister. I know many Atheist, mostly Muslims whom their parents and family members never accept. This is not good.
Me: If you find your son drinking poison, will you not stop him.
Atul: Yes, I will, but who are you to judge what poison is for him. May be what you are offering him is a slow poison. Also, I am not talking about kids, I am talking about adults. At least they should have freedom to choose what is right for them.
Me: Parents always know better. They think for your good.
Atul: Not always. Actually new generation in most of the cases is smarter than old generation. Because new generation has knowledge of old generation. Thus, It will be wrong to assert that parents are always right or they know more than us. Yes, they can have more experience in some field but not in all.
Me: Are you suggesting that parents should let their children to do whatever they want to do. Whether moral or immoral?
Atul: No, I am not saying that. Parents should always be there to guide them but must not force them. Encourage them to ask question and find solutions. Once they reach critical thinking age, let them decide for themselves. One that is force is never forceful. Parents must stop indoctrinating their children.
Me: I do not have blind faith in my religion; I read my holy book and find many scientific things written in Quran 1400 years ago. How it can be possible if it is not from creator? For example: It is mention in Quran that earth is spherical and everything revolve it its orbit. These are recent discoveries. How they can be found in Quran?
Atul: You seems to watch Zakir Naik videos. I too saw some of his videos. He has good memories but always misguide people using wrong information. All this claims you are making are already de-bunk on internet. Please watch them yourself. Further, tell me one thing. If everything was written clearly in your Quran, why no come up with heliocentric model of solar system? Why till 15th century people keep believing in geocentric model? Give me name of one arab scientist who was confirmed about the shape of earth in 12 th century when Arabs were most advance.
Me: I have to check that. I am sure there must be some.
Atul: Sure, please google it and do your research first before telling me stories.
Me: Why you are talking in such a rude manner? I am not telling you stories. It is fact. Many doctors convert to Islam after reading Quran.
Atul: People convert for different reason, but it does not prove anything. Many people leave religion as well. People are afraid to come out in public because of fear of being killed. Religious people always dominate the world.
Me: Yes because religion is true and Atheism is false. Why majority of world population believe in religion if religion is not true?
Atul: Do you think majority is always right? Truth is majority is always wrong until educated properly. Majority is illiterate. Majority lives in villages where there is no access to scientific education. Until 15th century for majority of earth population, universe was as big as our solar system. Everything what we know today is discovered in last 200 years. There was a time when majority believed that earth is flat. Let me try to make you understand from another perspective. Tell me how many religions are true in this world.
Me: Islam is the only true religion in the world.
Atul: How many people follow Islam?
Me: around 1.2 billion. What is your point?
Atul: Just wait please. This population contain both Shia and sunni right.
Atul: Do you believe either are correct or any one?
Me: Of course, Sunni are correct. Shia came later.
Atul: There are around 200 million Shia in world. Correct me if I am wrong. Thus, total sunni’s will be 1 billion. Total world population is 7 billion. Hence, majority is not following Islam. Roughly, 15% follow Islam. According to you only Sunni Muslims are correct. Hence, majority is not following true religion that means majority is wrong according to your belief.
ME: That is very clever. However, Majority believe in some sort of Creator where as you do not.
Atul: I am agnostic. Therefore, I do not negate creator. However, there can be two type of god. Theist and Deist. Theist is like god you believe in. He is sustainer and creator. Whereas Deist God is creator but does not interfere in created world. Creator may exist but I have problem with religion. Religions are manmade. See, one of the reason you believe in religion is that it gives you answers about creation of world. However, world can be created by a deist god too or perhaps by some Aliens far more advance than we do. Who knows, life on earth might be result of some experiment! I do not find any strong reason to believe in theist god.
Me: I disagree. If you will make something, you will care for it and look out for it. You care about your children or not. By children, I remember one more thing. I heard some atheist eat babies. I do not believe that, but without religion how they can be moral being.
Atul: I wanted to finish this debate here, but you bring something horrible. Have you seen any cat eating a cat? A loin eating its own babies? Thinking that someone is eating babies because he or she does not follow a religion is the most stupid thing. You do not need religion to be morals. Indeed, some religious morals are disgusting. Like in Hinduism, there is cast system, In Islam there is sex slavery. In Christianity, your confession will wipe out your sins. Using contraceptives is consider as against will of god. What kind of morality is this? Slavery was allowed in almost all-major religion at one point of time. Do you believe slavery is moral? Owning one person as property is ethical for you. We are human and me and people like me drive morals from humanity using logical arguments and debates. I personally do not know anyone eating babies. However, I know many religious people who killed babies to make god happy.
Coming back to first part to your question about caring for things we made, firstly you should stop equating god with some common human. Because you believe in a god who created billions and billions of galaxies consists of billions of stars and each star has some planets and each planet has different size and geography. Out of all these planet at least on one planet life exists. Millions of animals are living on this planet. Each animal is different from other and contain microscopic gene which contain DNA and this DNA contain instruction for life.
Anyone who has so much power to create such a big and complex universe will not be similar to us. He will be infinite times intelligent and more powerful than any human on earth. Hence thinking about him in human term is absolutely wrong.
If we leave aside religious information about God, we know nothing about him or her. We can only predict his behaviour by looking to his creation. Look at the world population. Millions of babies are dying every year from starvation and disease. Many species extinct every year. Thousands of people dies every year due to natural calamities like flood, earthquake, Storm and extreme cold and hot temperature. If god is sustainer and loved humans, there will not be any of these. For me better explanation will be that the creator created the universe, set its rules and left it. Or, some Aliens created life on earth and later on they might be exterminated. There is no reason to believe in theist god who care about human being after observing the condition of this world. Why a benign god will let children die.
Me: Everything happens for a reason. When peoples start indulging in sin, then only God destroy them. Those children who die early will directly go to heaven. God did everything for good. We do not have so much intelligence to understand it.
Atul: Why those children were even born if they have to go to heavens without doing anything? What about their parents who suffer so much due to their child’s illness and finally death?
Me: My friend, as you might know, this life is a test. Those who are true to their lord remain steadfast and always praise god whatever be the situation. God will reward such people with rewards more than they ever think in after life.
Atul: Again, you are going in the realm of faith, which I cannot check objectively. You can believe anything that does not hurt others. However, I am not convince. You asked me so many question, can I ask you some question. We still have an hour.
Me: You can ask question, but just remember one thing. I am not expert (Aalim) of my religion, so I may not be able to answer your entire question. If you really want to learn about Islam, I can give you nos. and address of experts.
Atul: No, I do not need experts. Most of your religious experts I saw on tv does not know about science. Don’t worry we are not playing game where if you were not able to answer then you will lose and I will win. Let us do friendly discussion with open mind. I have no interest in making you atheist.
Me: I have very strong faith, so do not worry, you cannot change my mind. J I will be happy to answer your question.
Atul: You just now said that life is a test and this is very important idea in Judeo-Christian and Islamic theology. When god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, why didn’t he knew before starting the world who will pass the test and who will fail in the test. He is the one who created human . If you create something, you must know about it. If he knew everything in advance, which he must as he is the creator, then what is the point of making this world?
Me: God has all the answers. I am just a human with limited knowledge. Pls. ask something else.
Atul: Is faith right way to follow religion? I mean, all religious people follow their religion based on faith. Why they are wrong and you are right?
Me: I am fortunate to born in true religion. I am not blindly following my religion. I read Quran and other religious books. They actually make sense. No one has answers to every question. However, when I read other religious scripture, I find lot of inhuman, immoral and illogical things.
Atul: Have you ever think why you can see those immoral things in others religion but followers of that religion do not?
Me: Yes, because they are bias towards their religion.
Atul: Right. And what about you? Are you not bias about your religion? May be you are not able to see what’s wrong in your religion because you too are bias!
Me: I never think about it. Moreover, not everyone is born Muslim; Islam is one of the fastest growing religion. Definitely, those new convert to Islam from other religions are not bias about Islam. They read, understand, ask questions and then embrace Islam.
Atul: Even Atheism is spreading very fast. Does that make Atheism true if it is not true already? As I said earlier, people convert for various reason. In South India, so called untouchable and backward class Hindus are embracing Christianity and Buddhism in protest for their human rights. Some Christians also offer jobs and money to poor non-Christian to convert. In some Muslim Arab countries non-Muslim, embrace Islam for getting better facilities and benefits. In US and Europe, African American are mostly embracing Islam because of discrimination they face by white people.
Most of the peoples convert to other religion because of emotional reasons rather than logical reason. Therefore, please come out of your imagination and face the reality.
ME: We all will face reality after we die. Nice meeting you. I am a blogger; if you permit, I would like to publish our conversation.
Atul: Sure. Please publish without editing any part, so that readers can decide on their own.
Me: Rest assure about it. Here is the link for my website. Can I have your mail id or Mobile no?
Atul: I prefer to remain anonymous. Thanks for bearing with me. I enjoy talking to you.
Me: Pleasure is all mine. Any time you want to learn about Islam, please message me and I will arrange some expert for you.
Atul: Oh, thanks. Keep reading books.
Me: Thanks for your advice. Good luck for your future. Hope we meet some day.
Atul: Good Bye!!!
He moved to his path and I moved to mine.
12 thoughts on “A conversation with an Atheist (Part-II)”
Pingback: A Conversation with an Atheist | Sustained Society
You started your argument with special pleading. It may be in the definition of a god that it doesn’ t need a creator, but that doesn’t show that a god exists. I can define a god as “something that needs to eat ice cream made from unicorn milk” but that doesn’t mean that god exists. And, hopefully you know, just because something is written in a book, that doesn’t make it real, not even if you think you have a magical book. Christians make the same silly claim.
There is nothing that says that your god is outside of the universe, indeed, if you accept the bible, the qu’ran, etc, then it must exist within the universe since it is subject to time, to distance and to materiality. Is your holy book wrong?
We do have evidence for evolution, and you use the same science that support evolutionary theory every day. You just decry it when it shows your religion to be wrong. And no we don’t know what may have been before the big bang, and we may never have that. It still doesn’t mean your god exists. As for what “made” the universe, it could be that the laws of physics did and they are as “eternal” as your god which you have no evidence for.
Science does keep changing. It always gets better. Then we have religion, ignorant dogma that modern people try to mangle into something they will follow. Religion always changes, “interpretations” are always changed and offered as the “truth”. Newtonian physics wasn’t replaced by Einstein, it was added to. You might want to know what you are attacking before you attack it. Lies don’t help you.
You also try the very old “but but atheists have to be nihilists/rebels”. We aren’t, but you try to bear false witness against us. You also offer Pascal’s Wager which always fails since the theist doesn’t think that any gods other than his exist. You try to lie that anything but your nonsense is poison, when you have no evidence it is true, just like any Christian, Hindu, etc.
You also seem to not be aware of child abuse by parents.
There is nothing scientific in the qu’ran nor in the bible. And you are very ignorant about when humans first knew the earth was a sphere. It is not recent at all. Pythagoras figured it out circa 500 BCE. This is the problem with many theists, they intentionally keep themselves ignorant about reality. This leads them to lie.
You are appealing to authority when you falsely claim that “many doctors convert to Islam after reading Quran”. Your atheist seatmate is correct to say that because someone converts means nothing about the truthfulness of a religion. If it did, you would have to admit that Christianity is as valid as Islam. Are you prepared to admit that? It’s great to see you admit that you think one religion is right, but have no evidence for that at all. It’s like Christians who want to claim that only their particular sect is right, that there are more Catholics so they must be more right than Protestants. Do you see how silly that is? And again, a bunch of people believing in the same thing doesn’t mean that thing is true. You want to claim that since other people believe in a creator, then they must be counted with those who believe in Allah. But they don’t believe in the same god you do, so you are using a lie to try to increase your numbers.
You also fail with the claims of morality. Funny how countries with fewer religious believers are far more humane than those who have many religious believers. Your holy book and the bible are full of murder and genocide, the god killing children for the actions of their parents, and commanding the murder of anyone who disagrees with the religion. Your religion has believers murdering each other, just like the Christians did before you, all sure that they had the one single “truth”. And none of you have that.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thanks for such a long reply. I guess most of the answer you gave are already covered in Atul answer. I could have change his answer in my favour but i didn’t. So stop calling me dis honest pls. I presented both sides quite fairly. The purpose of sharing this conversation is to let people realise that no one has perfect answers to all questions. Let us come together and find answer logically and rationally instead of fighting each other. Thanks.
You are indeed dishonest and yes, you did present both sides fairly. One doesn’t preclude the other. You have made dishonest claims about your religion and the existence of your version of your god. You have made claims that are anything but logical and rational, so again you try to make false claims, P&H, and that is why your answers aren’t perfect or to be accepted as any kind of truth.
LikeLiked by 1 person
making claim is not dishonest. Without knowing me you are blaming me is that honest? Anyhow, thanks for reading and commenting. I am not begging anyone to accept my answer. I leave it on readers to draw what ever conclusion they want to draw from conversation. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
Have a good day.
Why do you think I have to know you personally to know that a claims is false, P&H? You claim again to have the truth, and we see that you have no more truth than any other believer, be they Sunni, Shi’ite, Roman Catholic, evangelical protestant, etc. You have chosen to try to mislead people by making false claims about physics, about the evidence we have for evolutionary theory, the evidence we have for the big bang, that the qu’ran was the first to note that the earth is a sphere, You hope your reader is ignorant enough to accept your false words as facts. Now, I know Islam allows lying if you think its for a good enough purpose, but that’s a shame. You try to take away the ability of others to make an informed decision.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I put forward both sides honestly, it is up to the audiance to choose which side they want to choose. I didn’t force anyone to believe this or that. You are free to choose whatever you find logical.
No, P&H, you put forward false claims and claim them true, and you try to claim that you “put up both sides honestly”. It’s a shame that you have to lie further, but you do a great job of showing how dishonest theists can be. But that’s all you have, attempts to lie to people in hopes that they will believe you. For someone who claims to be honest, you certainly do a wonderful job of not putting up the truth at all.
Hi there, would be interested in having a discussion like this with you if you have the time
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’ll send you a message via the contact form on your page
Did you sent it?